imaging

[Cooter]

ok, all you expert installers out there... heres the deal.. whats the best way to get a front stage that images... (90 eagle talon)i have 5 1/4" mid-woofers in the doors and tweets in the dash and when i try to set my time delays the front stage gets muddy, and the image doesn't focus right, i know my mids are too far away from the tweets, but what the hell can you put in the dash to get a decent response curve below about 500hz, i think i can get 4's in there.. and i was thinking about some 6 1/2 midbass in the door.. but that doesn't nessecarily cure my problem.. i realize midbass frequency's are not as directional as the mids and highs, but i really want it to focus perfect without a center channel... or kick panels, so tell me what you guys think, pics would be kewl too, heres a list of system components,

head: Alpine CDA-7949
dsp: Alpine ERA-G320
Amp: Alpine MRV-F357 (5 channel)
Speaks: Alpine DDDrive 6*9 two ways in the rear
Alpine DDDrive 5 1/4 mids in the doors
JL Audio 3/4" tweets in the dash location
Sub: JL Audio 10W3-D4

thanks in advance,

Cooter

[Redsand187]

You'll probably have to custom mount your speakers in the dash, just use a little fiberglass some grill, a few hours of time bought-a-bing bought-a-boom. I'm guessing you are trying to protray the most realistic sound possible, So I would remove the rear 6x9's when at a concert do you hear the music behind you???? (I know I don't) I have ran PA for about 5 years, I grew up doing that type of stuff, In the stage set up at least in the smaller venues that I do <5000 people, I have never used any rear speakers, it would remove the attention from the stage. For your imaging I would put 6.5's in the door as high as possible. Then 4's in the dash and I would position the tweeters in experimented positions for finer tuning. If you want to do fiberglass and abs, then you could make some door panles. It really depends on how much you want to spend, but I will tell you that it is not cheap, and it takes a lot of experimenting and will. Tha is why SQ is dorfed to SPL in compition, any one can make 45,000 watts and 26 15's loud, but who can make a full array of speakers sound as accurate as possible? There is no set way, that is why every one has there own set ups, and own designs, so do what makes the sport great/fun experiment!

[Cooter]

i kinda like the "immersing" effect that rear fill gives you, i do have to change the rears to a round speaker though, and when properly set up rear fill won't interfere with your front stage, i know that when i listen i don't 'hear' the rear speakers, even though they are there, and making noise, this is a highly debated topic in most car audio circles, and some like rear speaks, some don't i've done installs in my cars both ways, and i like rear fill... thanks for the info though, i've never really installed much besides head units in these cars, (i'm an installer) so i wasn't sure what people were doing for front speaks on a higher end install.

Cooter

[Redsand187]

I have done both also, I I can't really even tell that they are there and when I can it becomes very annoying, I would rather spend money somewhere else. I am stumped on really where to put them with out custom making everything. The hole mitsu gave us sure suck! It take trial and error to figure it out. Pretty much you are going to have to plan this out sensibly, but bing that you are a Installer, I wouldnn't imagine any problems with doing it, just actually wanting to do what you have to to get th sound you want.

[ZBEEST]

You should be able to get 4" speakers in the dash. I've had 4" MB Quarts installed there but you have to trim someplastic.
Perhaps some GOOD 4" coax in the dash and some 6 1/2" woofers in the door with a crossover frequency of about 300Hz. If you have individual "gains" on your amp you do what I did with my SoundStream and run the rear speakers in mono off of one channel. The other channel powers a 4" speaker under the radio (center channel). With the rears running mono and low in volume you don't get any directional information and they give a nice ambiance.

[welderx]

cooter, i am not a pro tech but i am a audio freak. way back in the day i was a subscriber to richard clark's tech newsletters "autosound 2000 tech briefs". richard and his partner ,dave navone totally dominated iasca competitions with their buick gnx. in the tech briefs they explained how they did it.
the number one issue in imaging is equal path lengths. the distance from each driver to your ear must be as close to equal as you can get it. there is a lot of weird psyco-accoustic stuff here but to simplify things, your brain is able to do the math and triangulate. it is able to determine the location of a sound source based on the difference in arrival time when it is heard by your left and right ears. if you put speakers in the dash and door and all over, you have no hope.
fortunatly there is a really easy fix. Q-forms makes a kick panel for the 1G cars that holds a 5.25" and a 1" tweeter. kick pannel work really well because they locate the speakers close together and move the location back , further away from the driver. the farther away, the smaller the difference in path length between left and right. i have used these panels and they work out quite well. i got mine at circut city and they were $200.
everything i have been taught says to avoid dash locations, diffraction from the sound bouncing off the wind shield really screws things up. on rear fill, i use a midrange and crossover. follow the link http://www.airesearch.com/qlk3003.html

[Cooter]

i have a sound processor that will do time delays... so equal paths are not AS important, and as far as kick panels, i don't wanna kick the shit out of them when i'm speed shifting, (i work at a speed shop/12v electronics shop and do a fair amount of racing in the summer) and i drive the car all year round and winters in chicago can get pretty messy, so i need to keep delicate parts as high up as possible... i've switched the dash speaks and i got it to focus better from about 500hz on up, but i still need more midbass up front, i have a set of midbass drivers ordered, but this being the beginning of the new model year for most manufacturers, half of their products are backordered... so i'm waiting..

Cooter

[welderx]

cooter, it can't be done with a processor. the speaker path lengths have to physically be as close as possible.
the processor will cause phase shift problems. try it but you will probabl;y be happier with out it. b/t/w, i live in michigan and ran boston pro in my kick pannels with zero problems. greg

[DSMmania]

The best way that I found from competeing in IASCA shows locally and around the east coast area, I ran a setup as follows. I had a 5.25" Image Dynamics Chamelion set in fiberglass/mdf kick panels, very slim so I wouldn't be kicking them, an Image Dynamics IDQ6 6.5" midbass driver in sealed door pods (about .4 cubic foot per pod), along with some *cough* Kove *cough* 1" tweeters upfront that I had running off my deck, faded almost completely out. The reason for the tweeters was to bring the sound floor up to the ear level, but not have them be noticable enough to know they were in there. I guess if you're not looking to do kick panels, my suggestion would be to do a custom pod on the door panel with a tweeter at the very bottom from of the door panel angled at the right angle (to the opposite side seat persons ear) and then a matched 6.5" midbass right next to it. Try to also keep the frequency of the midbass below 500hz or you'll get the effect of the sound being around you, rather than realistically in front of you. Then try the tweeter trick, just stick them in there straight up towards the dash, and fade them out till you don't hear where they are, but it pulls everything up. I did well with that type of setup...I'd post pics, but it was an ugly ass "rice" type install at the time (Grey leather interior, yellow grilles etc.) Good luck!

Curt

[Edited by DSMmania on 02-15-2001 at 01:33 AM]