View Full Version : Third time trannie dies again.
Well last december my tranny pump took a dump and when the mechanic rebuilt it (even though I didn't want to!) it froze up and blew up. And I never got a refund. Then I went to the dealer and bought a new one for $2500. This time I installed it my self. I got tired of incompetent mechanics. I cleaned and installed my old valve body. It ran great. I took it to the trak a few times and I ran about four 12.1 to 12.4 runs. Then I installed cams and took it ones more and it ran a 11.91 @ 114. I must have done a total of eight runs at the track this summer. It has a dunrite TC and that's it. I changed the mitsubishy tranny fluid after the new tranny had 2000 miles and looked clean. Tranny now has about 6000 miles. I've barely driven it the past few months since I'm only in town on the weekends. I steped on it a few times from a roll but for the most part haven't powerbraked it for a long time. Even at that track I don't power brake much since I just spray off the line at about 3000rpm.
Yesterday morning I drove the car and it just didn't feel right. Shifts where a little slugish. But for the most part it worked ok. Then it started making a loud throbbing whine and it started to fall of gear ramdomly by the time I got to home. It felt as if it was jerking ramdomly, and right as I got home it went to neutural, but after a while it would engage and felt as if someone was pressing a break, so I just put it in N and coasted up the driveway. I let the car cool down.
I sarted it up again and it shifted perfectly fine. A couple of minutes later it started making the same sound and it started to fall out of gear to the point where it would barely engage. After that I couldn't even go in D or R, it would just act like netural. Fluid looks good and it's at a perfect level. Seems to run good when the tranny is cool for a few minutes wich is weird. I've barely driven the car in the past three months and haven't taken it much at all to the track this year. It seem odd that such a new tranny would fail. I bought the tranny brand new from the local dealer. It's still under warranty and my buddy who works there says there's a very good chance they'll just trade me for a new one, but I have to do all the labor. I'm bummed out it shifted perfectly fine the day before. I'll take out the pan, check for debris, and rebuild the VB to see if it helps, but I don't think that's the problem. But there's a good posibility since it drives fine for a little while, so I doubt there could be any major driveline components damage. I'm out of town again so I'll check it out this weekend. Sorry for the long post.
eagletalonawd
10-29-2002, 03:19 AM
Welcome to my world:eek: :(
That sucks ass.
You went throught a rebuild already didn't you? What happned the first time? And how many times did you get it rebuilt?
eagletalonawd
10-30-2002, 03:01 AM
Well, the first time it died it was a catastrophic failure. Alot of trashed parts, gears with no teeth, etc... I still don't know what actually caused it.:mad: I had it rebuilt my a Mitsu Master Tech who did it on the side for me. He found all the parts for me and rebuilt it. I went through the valve body. It was spotless after I was done. I polished all the valves, everything worked fine. The only stupid thing I did was having the torque converter rebuilt locally. (I told them to see if they could make it stall higher too.) I drove the car for about 10k miles. It had probably 20 passes at the track and several street races. Then this happened back in late June.
I did find another possible problem yesterday. While I was in the process of pulling the tranny out, I found that upper bolt that secures the shift cable to the top of the tranny had fallen out. You could take the cable and push it back very easily(changing gears). I hope that was not my problem, but from the smell of the tranny fluid that came out of my torque converter, I doubt. it.
Oh, also, my flex plate has a 4 to 5 inch crack/split in one of the forks.
(I had already posted some of this info to the AT digest, so if this is a re-read, sorry. ;) )
Ok. I'll check my shifter cables. I think I'm going to unplug my solenoids to see if it drives longer and with out making noise. Solme people with leaking capacitors on there TCU's had very similar problems.
What do you use to jack your tranny back into the car? I used a jack last time, and damm, talk about a bad Idea. It's a pain in the butt to get it to align with the back engine mount. Ones that was in it was a lot easier.
eagletalonawd
10-30-2002, 03:44 AM
I used a good floorjack with a decent sized plate on it. (Plate being the round piece that you lift with. I dont know what else to call it.) Yes, it was a PITA to install.
It sucks taking it out too. I just took mine out tonight and I broke the damn plastic speed sensor thing off that goes up inside the rear mount. That really pissed me off. :mad: The other thing that sucks is that the engine is only held up by one mount. All the rest go on the tranny, so I got another smaller crappy jack under the motor to hold it at a decent position. It just flops everywhere when reinstalling the tranny until you get it bolted up. :D
You did it all by your self with a jack?? I had two other buddy's around, and we all pushed with all our strenth. Getting a 230lbs object to align up with the rear tranny mount, so the bolt goes right through it is close to impossible. No one belived me how much it weighed so I got a scale :).
I took the hood off and stood on top of the engine. Then got something around the engine hook on top. THen I just pulled up and got the engine fairly straightend. Then I just jacked the tranny up. Getting that first mount on was like a two day task though. Any tips?
I never even noticed where the speed sensor is. My mechanic broke it ones. How did it happen? I hope it's not to pricey.
eagletalonawd
10-30-2002, 04:54 AM
Yeah, I get to do it all myself. It is not fun, but no one is ever around when I get ready to work on my car. :P The speed sensor thing is on the back side of the tranny, and it pokes up through the middle of the rear motor mount. It is like a long plastic tube that pokes up and has a plug that clips on the top.
When I put it back in, it took a while, but I eventually got it wiggled back in. Again, all by my lonesome. :( Having two jacks really helps out.
Oh yeah, 230 lbs is how much the tranny wieghs without fluid. No one here believes me that it wieghs that much. :D
Oh I remember what the speed sensor is now. That sucks.
What's really sad is that now I got 3 valve bodies three sets of solenoids, Three TCs, my older dead tranny with brand new seals clutches and bands. But it blew up preaty bad, cracked the casing and the final gear that conects to the center diff chewed themsleves up. Two of the valve bodies have shift kits too. I could make another tranny with a new case. It's preaty sad.
What are you planning on donig whith your transmision this time? If you do open it. Can you let me know if you do or don't find any internal damage? I'm out of town till friday and I'm really curious if you find something out. Thanks.
eagletalonawd
10-31-2002, 07:33 AM
My plan is to rebuild it myself with the red eagle master kit as long as there is no damage. If there is damage like last time I am just going to have to suck it up and start looking for 5 speed parts to do the swap. There is no way I am spending over 2k dollars on another A/T when I could go 5spd for about the same price and just drive the car around with no worries. It sucks to have a car that you will never trust to drive out of state as long as it has an A/T tranny. :( :o
I don't know when I will get it apart. Maybe this week. I want to check it out before I order the rebuild kit.
97TSiAWD
10-31-2002, 03:05 PM
Reading all these posts reminds me of my "fun" this past summer with the torque converter upgrade. 2G A/Ts are definitely no fun to install. I still have nightmares about the frustration that was caused during that project. :D
-Jon
Jon, you seem to have the best luck out of all of us when it comes to tranny problems. I'll admmit my original tranny did last a long time though. What kind of ATF do you use?
And yes installing an AT tranny is a nightmare. Before I ever work on mine again I'll look into a better jack. I'd really like something that's designed for transmision, or lets me have a lot more control and support then a normal jack. If I can't find one I'll get an engine hoist to help me manuver the transmison.
97TSiAWD
10-31-2002, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by nano
Jon, you seem to have the best luck out of all of us when it comes to tranny problems. I'll admmit my original tranny did last a long time though. What kind of ATF do you use?
<knock on wood> :) I use B&M Trickshift tranny fluid, the blue stuff.
As for tranny work, I would highly recommend getting a good garage/floor jack. They have a much wider platform piece that you can balance the tranny on better. You can also get a transmission adapter for it but mine turned out to be a waste of time when installing. The adapter was too tall and there was no way I could put the tranny on top of it. I just used the garage jack's piece and a smaller jack on the side to lift the tranny up. I also enlisted the help of my Uncle to give me a hand with it. I even got him swearing a lot during the work. :D
-Jon
4SFED4
10-31-2002, 07:29 PM
Level 10 builds Mitsu AWD trannys for around $4K with a conveter. I have been running one for over a year. I did however burn it up twice. They did stand behind their work and it only cost me shipping to have it redone. It has been in the car now for 3 months and holding over 600hp at the wheels. I have only made about 12 passes with it, but its still holding for now. I am very pleased with the transmission and the performance of the car.
The level 10 kits are just rebuild kits and TCs. It's not going to save a tranny pump from failing or a broken gear teeth wich is what happen after my last rebuild. As far as I know it's just a clutches, bands, seals kit, and a high stall TC. What happened when it burned out? What do you run?
97tsiAWD, I did use a big floor jack and a smaller jack. But I found it's close to impossible to align the rear mount so the bolt would go through. It took two of my buddies and me strugling for hours. I really don't ever want to go through that again. What mount did you bolt up first?
4SFED4
10-31-2002, 09:24 PM
I have a 1G, the trans only has one mount on my car so I cant help with that part. I am not talking about ordering a Level 10 kit, if you call them they will ell you what they can do to the trans. My first failure was due to the visciuos failing. I sent it back and now I have a custom center diff and viscious unit in my trans, which is locked like a welded diff in a 5spd. The second was a converter failure,which was also modified for my application. If you plan on running less than 500hp thier standard build up will do, which includes higher grade clutches that they install. As for my timeslips, I ran a 10.84@126 with an ETE52 and no juice. I now have a custom turbo and a dual stage NX kit. I havent been to the track with this setup, the 12 passes I am counting were 3 dyno pulls and some street races.
16G TSi
11-01-2002, 02:48 PM
read my posts in this forum about the problems I was having..... you've described them to a "t".
FIX: $600./2 days a/t -> m/t swap!!! :D :D
4SFED4
11-01-2002, 04:54 PM
the a/t car I have now was my fisrt AWD DSM (my very 1st was a 90 TSi FWD). I played with it as an auto but eventually swapped it to a 5spd before I ever bought another car. The 5spd was fun and you feel the power more, but it just wasn't consistant. I chose toswap back to auto after I had my trans fully built and have been happy ever since. I have yet to see a 5spd car be able to build 30psi of boost sitting still before a launch or shift without the BOV going off, my a/t does both. I bought several AWD 5spd cars since and I had fun with them, but they never took the place of the a/t car.
97TSiAWD
11-01-2002, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by 4SFED4
I have yet to see a 5spd car be able to build 30psi of boost sitting still before a launch or shift without the BOV going off, my a/t does both.
30psi at the line must be awesome. Do you have line lock?
Also, I think I saw your car at the Shootout. Were you staying at the Best Western in Norwalk? I talked to one of the guys there (the one who was replacing his axle in the Arby's lot) who told me a bit about your car. Since you were not around (in bed maybe), they couldn't pop the hood to give me a look at it. I was really interested when I heard it was an A/T. :)
-Jon
eagletalonawd
11-01-2002, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by 16G TSi
read my posts in this forum about the problems I was having..... you've described them to a "t".
FIX: $600./2 days a/t -> m/t swap!!! :D :D
Unfortunately, we can't all be as lucky as you to steal all the parts for that price. :mad:
4SFED4
11-01-2002, 05:16 PM
It wasnt my car you seen at this past shootout, but I plan on making in next year. I dont have a line lock, I use an Electromotive TEC II and it allows me zero the timing with a switch. With zero timing the engine builds up heat and spools the turbo very quickly, but you will need a 3500 stall or higher to get the RPM up a enough to build it. I have a 4500 stall but never have to go over 4000 to build 30psi, it only took 3500 to charge the ETE52. Even with the turbo boosted the car doesnt pust that hard because with zero timing it doesnt make the HP. My switch is incorperated with the break pedal so when I release it my timing goes to the programed setting and you have liftoff to a 1.50 60' on radials.
16G TSi
11-02-2002, 12:57 AM
30 psi, i'm impressed. Tell me again what the fastest dsms are running, 5 speed or auto?
Oh, Ok.....
16G TSi
11-02-2002, 01:31 AM
Originally posted by 16G TSi
30 psi, i'm impressed. Tell me again what the fastest dsms are running, 5 speed or auto?
Oh, Ok.....
sorry to seem like such a dick, but really, the auto's weight is 170lbs (dry) more than the manual tranny (yes, I weighted them both myself) and the auto takes more HP to turn (wasted HP). If you leave the line at 4000rpm/30lbs boost w/auto, why cant you leave at 5000, slipping the clutch.... to 30psi? To each their own, I suppose.
97TSiAWD
11-02-2002, 01:58 AM
4SFED4: I guess you use the same basic concepts of an ALS (anti-lag system) using the ECU. I hope to be able to do similar things when I upgrade to a standalone (AEM EMS). 1.5x 60foots are very impressive. My problem right now, and I never thought I'd have to say it, is traction. With my pretty old Kumhos, cold weather, and hard launching, I end up spinning all four wheels off the line and well through first gear. When I try launching nicer, I tend to bog it. Just need some practice and tuning to find that happy medium between bog and spin. :)
97TSiAWD
11-02-2002, 02:17 AM
16G TSi: I don't think 4SFED4's post was directed at you (and there were no signs of him being confrontational) so I don't know where your rant came from. You chose MT, that's great. Others have chose to stick it out with the AT. That's great for us too. Each tranny type has it's advantages and disadvantages.
Basically, I see no reason for you to be a dick.
16G TSi
11-02-2002, 12:24 PM
thus the reply to myself.... :D
97TSiAWD
11-02-2002, 02:10 PM
Well, even in your reply to yourself you seemed like a.... :D
I guess you just wanted to get those things off your chest. That's fine but really has nothing to do with the thread (not that most of the other stuff does either). Anyway, we'll end that shit now and see where the thread goes.
-Jon
4SFED4
11-02-2002, 07:34 PM
The fastest DSM powered car is an a/t, Buschur uses a Powerglide. I plan on attending a few events next year especially the DSM shootout. I dont usually go to events because I dont like running the piss out of my car for just 2 or 3G when I can make $1000 to $2500 with one race on the street. More cash for me, less abuse on the car. Right now AWD 5spd DSMs are dominant over the a/t cars, but that may change in the future. Phatridz has a very quick FWD Neon that uses an a/t and can compete with the 5spd cars in its class. In the end it comes down to personal preferance, just dont cuss the a/t guy when you miss a gear.
4SFED4
11-02-2002, 07:57 PM
I dont mind confrontation, sometimes its interesting to see who can make the best point. But just to avoid a conflict that does not include me "You only use a/t because you can't drive a 5spd." I CAN drive a 5spd DSM very well, but the flaws of 5spd (to me) are greater than that of an a/t. No matter how fast you shift your 5spd you still have to lift off the gas, BOV goes off and you have to build back lost pressure. With the a/t the BOV never goes off and no pressure is released unless I lift or something breaks. Also launching, no matter how good you are you cant slip the cluch the exact same way every time you stage. With my a/t I can leave at the same RPM and boost every time. I am not a bracket fan, but when I say my car runs a #, I want it to run it consistanly. I just want to confirm that everyone who drives an a/t isn't a pantywaste that can't drive a stick.
Does the 1g AT weight different then the 2G tranny? Becasue I weighed mine with the TC and no fluid and it came out to be 230lbs.
16G TSi
11-03-2002, 12:12 AM
Originally posted by 4SFED4
The fastest DSM powered car is an a/t, Buschur uses a Powerglide. I plan on attending a few events next year especially the DSM shootout. I dont usually go to events because I dont like running the piss out of my car for just 2 or 3G when I can make $1000 to $2500 with one race on the street. More cash for me, less abuse on the car. Right now AWD 5spd DSMs are dominant over the a/t cars, but that may change in the future. Phatridz has a very quick FWD Neon that uses an a/t and can compete with the 5spd cars in its class. In the end it comes down to personal preferance, just dont cuss the a/t guy when you miss a gear.
we can agree to disagree then ;)
you absolutly CAN shift without lift (steel shift forks! YAY), and there are many people who can row a 5 speed consistantly.
My mustang is a 10.90 car @123mph in full weight/naturally aspirated form... I can run consistant 10.86-10.92's all day long. I guess its just something you have to get used to :confused: I will admit, when I'm spraying a 125 shot, I cant drive consistantly at all... so whatever that means.
oh well, sorry for steering this thread OT.
-Jason
97TSiAWD
11-03-2002, 01:26 AM
Originally posted by nano
Does the 1g AT weight different then the 2G tranny? Becasue I weighed mine with the TC and no fluid and it came out to be 230lbs.
Yes. The 2G A/T has lockup torque converters and the 1G do not. The 2G weighs more.
And about A/Ts not having to lift to shift, M/T can get away with it too. Get a TMO ECU with clutch cut (clutch in, it drops the revs for next gear) and you can stay on it for the whole 1/4 mile. Without it, you can still do it by shifting really fast. Not good for the tranny but it'll keep you in boost and get some good ETs.
And to add to 4SFED4's statement, I can drive M/T as well. :D
4SFED4
11-03-2002, 01:46 AM
I never claimed to be the best 5spd pilot, but I do better than most. It is true you can shift a 5spd without lifting, but every now and again I broke 3rd. Anyone who has seen Glazar's Talon run the last 2 seasons, notice the "jumps" to the finish line. He lost considerable time between shifts, that was the example I wanted to make. I have never had a professionally build 5spd, but I did use steel forks and 3rd gear still disagreed with me. I still love driving 5spd DSMs and occasionally street race with one(I have had several), but when it comes to the big boys I break out the A/T car.
Well. I'm preaty sure it's my tranny pump. It's the second time I kill one in a year. Does heat kill pumps? I can hear it whine like crazy in N. When it starts to whine it seems to loose all preasure and the tranny slowly stops shifting. I looked though the DSMtech manual CD and it defenetly shows it as either being a tranny pump failiur or maybe a valve body problem. For a hardcore A/T person this CD is a must. It explains many things about the A/T tranny even some incredebly easy instructions on how to rebuild them.
I guess the I should invest in a bigger cooler, A/T temp gauge and and some B&M trickshift fluid. Is there a specific trickshift fluid you use Jon?
4SFED4
11-05-2002, 09:37 PM
I know if the converter is not all the way on the spline it will eat the pump. Also if you had a previous failure everything that is not replaced must be flushed thouroughly(i.e. trans cooler, all lines). Use a good synthetic ATF and check the fluid on regular basis and make sure it doesn't smell burnt.
My original tranny had the die pump after 54k miles. It still shifted, but leaked out of the pump bushing where the TC sits, and contaminated the tranny with metal chunks. Then the mechanic decided to do a rebuild and it would slip preaty bad on the 2 to 3 shift but it hold the gear fine ones it shifed. He couldn't figure what it was. I rebuilt the VB and it still did it. He even bought a new VB, installed the shift kit and still would do it. Then one day it made a weird gear buzz and it locked up the gears that send power to the center diff and blew it self up.
I think the weird buzz was some chipped teeth that later on caused the tranny to lock up.
On my brand new tranny. I installed it my self. I've been around other mechanics who took my tranny out and they showed me how to make sure the TC sits all the way in. When it wasn't all the way in it stuck out a little and wouldn't spin freely. I really made sure it sat all the way in. I even measured the clearance, which should be close to 16mm with the TC properly sitting all the way in.
First time my pump died I was spining roadies in the ice. I litterally held the gas at full throtle for a about 20 seconds for the second time in a row. when suddenly the engine tone changed and tranny fluid started pouring out the bottom. I think it got too hot.
The second time my buddy drove the car. He was with me, but he's used to romping on the gas on he's 11 second 5spd car non stop. We raced a bunch from a roll and he didn't let it cool down much. I didn't think the tranny would heat up much from high speed rolls, but I think it did. Because the next day pump started whining and the fluid bubled like mad when I cheked it. But by then it stoped working. Everytime the fluid looked good after it died.
At the track earlier this year the tranny cooler would get so hot that water would instantly boil off after two runs in a row.
At this point I'm just wondering what causes these pumps to die so easily, or if it's just me. I"ve been using mitsu ATFIII but I'm thinking of using some B&M trickshift like 97TSIAWD uses. He's had great luck with our trannies, but he also has a bigger cooler and a AT temp gauge.
vrc_racing
11-06-2002, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by 4SFED4
As for my timeslips, I ran a 10.84@126 with an ETE52 and no juice. I now have a custom turbo and a dual stage NX kit. I havent been to the track with this setup, the 12 passes I am counting were 3 dyno pulls and some street races.
I would like to know more about your setup. I have gone back and read all of your post since you joined in Oct 2002. I'm interested in how you can get the anti-lag to work when you have the torque converter loading down the engine.
Where is Va are you located? I'm surprised that we haven't crossed paths.
BTW- a 10.84 pass would put you in the number three position on the fastest A/T list http://users.erols.com/rcoxe/fastest.htm
4SFED4
11-06-2002, 05:12 PM
I dont really like disclosing my engine set up, but I will give lots of a/t info because I think it is time 5spd guys recognize. The most I will say is my engine was a 4G63 .020 over when I ran the 10 sec pass. I dont post my times because I do alot of street racing and dont like to brag. Next year I plan to attend some events when I can get the car to run single digits consistantly. I dont use an anti-lag system, I use an Electromotive TEC II that allows me to retard the timing to zero with a switch. I have no clue on how to do that with another system. My car was very slow to launch like 1.8 60's at best until I utilized this. I would call a shop knowlegable about your management system and see if you can utilize it as well.
vrc_racing
11-06-2002, 05:19 PM
Guess it's time to run up the BS flag
4SFED4
11-06-2002, 05:29 PM
BS flag for what... you asked me a question I answered. If your that smart and so quick why are you asking me what you should already know. I normally hang out at the Burger King on Rt. 28 in Manassass. My car is white with a blue cage and my plate # is 4SFED4. Maybe we will meet and see who flys the flag. And I don't raise hoods so dont ask.
vrc_racing
11-06-2002, 05:44 PM
I am just trying to understand your setup and have a few problems with the performance numbers and techniques.
As far as racing is concerned, Sorry I don't street race.
But if you would like to line up I will be at MIR on Sunday for last race of the season.
Thanks,
eagletalonawd
11-06-2002, 08:52 PM
Originally posted by 4SFED4
BS flag for what... you asked me a question I answered. If your that smart and so quick why are you asking me what you should already know. I normally hang out at the Burger King on Rt. 28 in Manassass. My car is white with a blue cage and my plate # is 4SFED4. Maybe we will meet and see who flys the flag. And I don't raise hoods so dont ask.
You don't raise hoods? Why? There aren't many top secret mods out there that we don't know about. That is just a crummy attitude. :rolleyes: I met Russ (VRC_Racing) at the shootout this year. He was cool as hell. He let us go up in his trailer and check out all his stuff.
(I can understand not wanting to show v8 guys and other street racers, but come on, we are in the same club.)
Oh, Russ, if you get to check out his car, tell us if it has a t4 turbo, AIC controller, Motec exhaust, and a $10k dollar stand alone fuel management system. :P :D (j/k, I had to get that one in there.)
:happy:
4SFED4
11-07-2002, 05:34 PM
I apolagize for such an immature response, I guess I just got my panties in bunch. Anyways I dont have any real DSM secrets and most of the DSMers at the cruise in know what I have. I simply dont like to raise my hood because it attracts all the Honda geeks. As far as Russ not wanting to street race, I underdstand. I guess if we come to a match up it will most likely be at a an IDRC race. I plan on running Quick class since Lexan and no interior isn't allowed in Street. I dont want to make any enimies, but I tend to get jumpy at a challange or any F&F parody directed at me. As far as preformance #s.... a 2500# car with 550hp at the wheels should go faster than a 10.80, but then again I don't know nothing.
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