1993 nt makes wierd noises

[jd1828af]

My car makes a noise similar to a lifter tick but more clanky sounding while accelerating in 3,4,5 gears and somewhat in 2nd. It goes away when i stay at constant speed no matter how fast. Here are the things that I know about my car that may help you diagnose the problem.

1. Low compression is cyl #1 not below service point though, Caused by worn ring. the rest have great compression.

2. car is about due for timing belt change

3. Oil gauge reads lower then it should but i believe the sending unit may be bad.

4. Have tried premium gas. With no noticeable results.

5. Ive tried just about every oil weight. under 50 weight

[saturdaynight]

Seriously, sounds like your engine is due for a rebuild. How many miles do you have on the engine?

[jd1828af]

it has 134,000. I use to have a pontiac grand am that made the same noise but never found the problem on that one either.

[saturdaynight]

Well, the first thing I would try is adding some marvel mystery oil to your engine. It's designed to help rid the engine of, among other things, lifter tick. You made need to do this a few times at every oil change. But just hearing your description of the condition of your engine sounds like there is a lot more to be done then that. When you open the hood, where does the sound come from?

[jd1828af]

I only hear the sound during hard acceleration. I have also noticed that it also happens if I try to accelerate from a low rpm (1500-2000) and when going up hill. It does not do this while in neutral so all i know is that is comes from under the hood

[saturdaynight]

Well, these are my two guesses. You said your timing belt needs to be changed. well, ever heared of spark nock? This is caused because your timing is off and your plug is sparking at the wrong point in the combustion cycle. Also the fact that you are having trouble with a cylinder makes me think of this. You could also be having trouble with a piston ring. Try applying the brake and step on the gas. Does the sound get louder?

[jd1828af]

It did have a bad lifter tick + the clanking sound but i advanced the timing and the tick went away but the other sound seemed to happen a little more often.

[saturdaynight]

Well, then your timing may be off a bit. Since, you said the belt needs to be replaced, then I'd say it's time to do so! ;)

[jd1828af]

good idea, is there any other things i should do at the same time. Ive never done a timing belt so about how long does it take?

[saturdaynight]

Well, I've only done one myself and I took my time doing it. It took a few hours. You'll want a good shop manual to go over it. My Haynes manual was very breif in the discussion. I'm kind of a book worm when it comes to working on anything mechanicle.

[jd1828af]

thanks a lot for the help, i might do the belt this weekend. ill let you know how it goes

[saturdaynight]

good luck with it! :)

[saturdaynight]

Oh, I would still look at the #1 cylinder since you're having issues there. You may find that you have to replace that piston ring.

[jd1828af]

I put some stuff in the oil that said it would restore compression. I put it in about 500 miles ago so I was going to do a compression test on that cylnder to see if it improved any. Thats about all I can do with it with out doing a rebuild

[saturdaynight]

Definately, let me know how it goes! Again, best of luck! :)

[jd1828af]

I tried holding the break and giving it gas. The noise started at about 3000 rpm. I the noise has to some how be associated with the engine being under load.

[saturdaynight]

Then you probably need to replace the piston ring. Seriously, the engine sounds like it's really in need of a rebuild.

[jd1828af]

Im in school right now so i wont even think about doing a rebuild until summer. Im just looking for cheap ways to keep the car running until then.

[jd1828af]

is it even worth the time and money to rebuild a 1993 talon?

[saturdaynight]

Originally posted by jd1828af
is it even worth the time and money to rebuild a 1993 talon?

It's all up to you. I mean the car is running. right? So maybe you will have to put up with the sound for a while. You have many options. You could repalce the timing belt for now and deal with the rest later. At least you won't get stranded with a broken timing belt. If you don't want to do a rebuild on the car, you could always look around for another.

As far as if the car is worth it? My opinion is, "only if you feel that it's worth it." But it somewhat can depend on how much you paid for the car in the first place. If you don't want to fix it, then that's fine too. I'm just telling you what I think needs to be done to it to fix the issue you asked about.

It's your call! ;)

[ginsu417]

The ticking under load sounds like a detonation knock. In fact I'm almost sure of it. Random detonation sounds like rocks hitting the bottom of the car. Ignition advance knock sounds similar, but does not vary in frequency. It sounds like winding up a toy.

Valve tick will go away after 2500 RPM and knock will come on strong around there. 3000 RPM is the magic number on the 1.8. If you've got a bad ring and oil is getting into the chamber, you're lowering the effective octane rating of the fuel, which would cause knock. If the timing belt is off by a notch in either direction, you'll have knock. The fact that it does it on steep grades is another indication of knock. I recommend you back off the ignition timing a degree or two and change your spark plugs - at least until you can get the timing belt done. As the engine wears it becomes necessary to back off the timing anyway.

As far as doing a rebuild, you probably won't know if it's worth the money until you start. If you've taken good care of the car, it may only need a set of rings, bearings and valve guides. This is cheap, compared to a new car, but time consuming. If it's done right, your car will last you easily another 100,000 miles.

- K

[jd1828af]

that makes sense, after I advanced the timing a bit the lifter tick went away but the other noise got a little worse. Ill try backing off the timing and see what happens. I am also going to try to get the oil pressure tested. I just changed it last night this time I tried a synthetic blend 20W-50 and the pressure on the gauge is still just above the first mark while on the highway, but it is an improvement. I also noticed that the slight tick at idle has gone away with this oil.
:D
I have tried 92 octane with little or no improvement, but this was after advancing the timing. There is just one problem with your idea, I can rev the engine in neutral with out hearing the sound. I would think that it would make the noise even while in neutral, but I could be wrong.

[ginsu417]

You can advance it 25 degrees and it still won't knock in neutral. Detonation and spark knock normally occur under high cylinder temperatures and pressures, which are much much much higher when the engine is under load. If you have a timing light, it should be firing at 15 degrees BTDC with the diagnostic connector jumped to ground. Otherwise, just retard it a little at a time until the knock goes away. You're actually losing power this way because your're fighting the natural rotation of the engine and the sound you hear is the shockwave of energy and being absorbed by your combustion chamber as heat instead of converted to useful work. A little bit is not particularly harmful to stock N/T motors unless their run hard, but if it's held constant it's eventually either going to stall and/or melt your spark plug electrodes. You will also experience some overheating when the cooling system reaches it's heat rejection limit (long uphill climbs).

It sounds to me like your car is running okay except for the low oil pressure and some tuning issues. My oil pressure is always that low (just a few mm above the 1st line at about 3000 rpm) because I'm feeding half my oil to a turbo. You should be running 40W oil at that milage. 50W will actualy do more damage to the motor because it's too thick to flow freely through the oil passages. That really thick goop that's supposed to restore compression is just as dangerous. It should run fine on 40W unless one of the bearings spin. But running excessively thick oil is accelerating engine wear. If it's not making any other nasty noises, or using more than a quart every 800 miles, you probably don't have anything to worry about.

- K

[jd1828af]

i have 20W-50 in it which if i remember correctly means that it is a 20 weight what will not thin more than a 50 weight at 100 C. A guy at the auto store told me once that if I use a straight 50 weight it will ruin the oil pump. So, do you think that this stuff is good to leave in my car?

[ginsu417]

Oil pressure is important, but not nearly as important as flow. In most cases, thicker oil builds more pressure, but only because it's flowing less readily. At startup, before you build pressure, and at idle, when the oil pump is running at a lower RPM, there are areas of your engine that will suffer from lack of lubrication. The oil is thicker, but there's less of it where it needs to be. I'd suggest an anti-friction ingredient such as prolong or dupont to reduce the friction on moving parts. I ran a honda prelude on 20W50 (not even synthetic) with a dupont friction reducer for 2 years with no problems.

You'll also find that your oil won't thin as quickly after you fix that knock problem ;)

- K

[jd1828af]

So the oil i have is fine then? I dont want to make my car worse than it already is. Is there any thing that I can buy to add to the fuel to stop or reduce the knock?

[ginsu417]

The oil is probably too thick for long term use. I'd recommend 10W40 synthetic, or at least mixing it 50/50 with your 20W50. If that burns off too quickly and you want to continue using 20W50, you'll should put in a friction reducer additive.

The knock problem is most likely your ignition timing, and not related to your fuel. Just back it up a few degrees and the knock should subside.

- K

[hideki03]

what's the difference between synthetic and regular motor oil? what are the benefits?

(i always thought oil was oil, if it was the same thickness)

thanks

hideki

[jd1828af]

There are lots of differences. Have you ever noticed that you can buy one type for about $1 a qt. while others can be as much as $7 a qt. The reasons can be kind of confusing though. Im a chemical engineering major in college and i still dont understand some of it.

this page will give you a general idea

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question164.htm

[ginsu417]

They provide better protection by keeping everything cleaner, and lubricating better than petroleum based oils. Regular Petroleum Based multigrade "Dino oil" isn't as slick as synthetic. Synthetics are engineered with a slicker, better flowing molecular structure than petroleum based oils, and as a result are more expensive because they have to be "made" rather than just refined from crude oil. They can contain more detergents and additives because it takes a lower concentration of the lubricating agents to do the job - which is also why poeple report problems with leaks. That stuff penetrates like nobody's business and has so many detergents, if you used it exclusively on a good running engine, your engine would show almost no signs of wear or internal aging even after 50,000 miles. You can always tell who's using synthetics when you look at the inside of a motor because it looks brand new.

Synthetics never truly lose thier lubricating abilities. They just burn off the additives in them required to keep them functioning properly. Theoreticly, if you had a 100% clean engine, you could change just the filter and top off with additives every 3000 miles and almost never have to change oil. With really good synthetics ($10/qt and up), people have reported service of up to 12,000 miles before the oil changed color and needed to be changed. It's better, but it only works in mechanicly sound engines. If you've got old seals, synthetic will end up being your worst nightmare, much like it was on my old motor. People think I'm nuts, and they're probably right, but as soon as my break-in period is up on my new motor I'm switching back to synthetic.

- K

[jd1828af]

You definitely seem to know what you are talking about.

[hideki03]

ginsu always clarifies things very good :)

would it be wise for me to switch over to synthetic? my motor is around 120k miles and i just replaced the head gasket not so long ago... or should i stay with my "crude oil?

Hideki

[ginsu417]

If you switch oils at that age, you may open up oil leaks. I wouldn't do it unless you had all new oil seals installed recently.

- K

[saturdaynight]

Yeah, I've been using synthetic motor oil since I bought my car with 50,000 miles on it. The engine has always run great and in cold weather she never has any trouble starting at 35 degrees below zero! :D

Synthetic oils are more resistent to heat then conventional oils. Heat breaks down oil and the less your oil breaks down, the better protection you get.

[jd1828af]

I tried adjusting the timing and it worked!! I beat on the car all weekend and didnt even hear the slightest noise. As for the oil I need to get that stuff out of my car as soon as possible. the idle is very rough when the oil is cold and starting the car is difficult. other than that it now runs great. you guy are geniuses i had just about given up on this car!

[saturdaynight]

Glad we could help! :D